November 19, 2017

"As soon as Broaddrick’s story starts to impose on today’s tribal loyalties, and possibly impugn Hillary, it loses credibility."

"Suddenly, Broaddrick’s account is 'wildly unlikely.' Broaddrick was obviously misreading Hillary’s remark, [Michelle] Goldberg speculates [in her NYT column]. 'Most reporting about the Clinton marriage shows Bill going to great lengths to hide his betrayals.' On the question of Bill Clinton’s decades-long history of sexual abuse, Goldberg implies, Hillary Clinton had absolutely no idea what was going on. And yet this is what Goldberg also believes about Hillary Clinton: that she’s an intelligent, shrewd political operator; a woman who pioneered the notion of a First Lady as co-president; someone intimately involved in every aspect of her husband’s career and campaigns; supremely attuned to what her enemies could use against her; a wife whose televised defense of her husband’s account of his sexual past in the primary season saved his career; a master of detail and strategy; worldly because she had to be. And yet at the same time, Goldberg believes that Hillary knew nothing about her political partner’s history of abusing, harassing, and exploiting women, was for decades a staggering naïf, and not an equal partner, was kept out of the information loop all along, and shocked, shocked, every time one of these bizarre accusations emerged...."

Writes Andrew Sullivan at New York Magazine.

156 comments:

Tom from Virginia said...

The media was settling nicely on a new narrative and a new conventional wisdom. Then that Franken picture came out. Folks, I've got whiplash.

Jason said...

How nice of Sullivan to take some time off from obsessing over Trig Palin and over Sarah Palin's vagina that he can lecture the rest of us about the danger of one's heart being twisted by tribalism.

Mike Sylwester said...

I have become a fan of SonofNewo on YouTube. On Friday he posted a good overview of the sexual-harassment accusations against Roy Moore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlqyvPn_1hI

SonofNewo distinguishes between the truthful girls at the mall and the one hoaxster girl at the diner.

The hoaxster girl at the diner is Beverly Young Nelson. She is the one who used different-color ink to add words to Moore's inscription in her yearbook.

Everyone can see that hoaxster Nelson used different-color ink to add words.

By the time the Alabama election takes place, practically all Alabama voters will understand also that hoaxster Nelson mistakenly thought -- while copying Moore's signature from her own divorce decree -- that the letters "D.A." stood for "District Attorney".

When Moore signed hoaxster Nelson's divorce decree, he was a judge, not a district attorney. The letters "D.A." were the initials of the assistant of Judge Moore.

In her imaginary story, hoaxster Nelson used the "district attorney" words. Supposedly, Moore threatened hoaxster Nelson by saying that he himself would be believed because he was a district attorney but nobody would believe her because she was only a child.

Dave Begley said...

The Clintons are two sickos. Corrupt sickos.

We deplorables can go to church today and thank God the two of them - along with their crew - are out of power.

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

K. Where were you in 2016? Not like any of this is new.

NotWhoIUsedtoBe said...

Please enlighten us on the media's treatment of women candidates, oh purveyor of Palin conspiracy theories.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Dave Begley said...
We deplorables can go to church today and thank God the two of them - along with their crew - are out of power.


And that a different misogynist and abuser of women is in power? This is your idea of progress?

Laslo Spatula said...

Interesting to wonder what Clinton is thinking about this tidal shift in regards to his Legacy.

Does he stay quiet and let it crumble?

Does he try to give an apology that feels his victims' pain and salvages some of his pride?

Twenty years ago the media would applaud such a move from a 'flawed but great' President.

Not sure the media is up for trying to roll that stone up the hill, now.

I am Laslo.

rhhardin said...

That people care about women's feelings is a fiction.

It's today's narrative that they care, but they don't.

Man and woman relations are interpersonal, not public, so there's no public issue.

tim in vermont said...

So who is to blame, ARM, the people sick of being lied to by the same media that was trying to shove the Clinton s hit sandwich down our throats?

David Begley said...

Laslo:

Bill says nothing. Hillary ain’t running again. He’s got his money.

This week probably a trip on the Lolita Express. Escape the NY cold, doncha know.

Birkel said...

Is ARM practicing "whataboutism" today?

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

rhhardin said...
Man and woman relations are interpersonal, not public, so there's no public issue.


This is nonsense, of course. If you are the parent of a daughter you do not want a public environment where perverts think they are entitled to burst into a changing room to perv at the bodies of teenage girls. Behavior like that would get a local school sports coach fired and the same standard should apply to the presidency.

tim in vermont said...

Worst Trump credible accusation vs worst Clinton credible accusation, not even close. Trump apparently is some cross between Maurice Chevalier and Pepe LePew, Clinton used the power of his public trust to commit forcible rape.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Birkel said...
Is ARM practicing "whataboutism" today?


Trump is president today. Whataboutism brings up the past to distract from the present.

traditionalguy said...

The interesting development to me is that Loyalty as a virtue is thrown out the moment that's the chance to trash anyone arises in the Social Media.

Hillary's loyalty to Bill through it all was a good thing back in the old days ...5 years ago. But now everybody must get stoned.

That difficult Judge Moore so hated by his betters gets no loyalty from Party or anyone else now that he can be trashed. No where is any Media telling is he given any empathy for his career. No one hears he was a West Point graduate who served in Vietnam Nam and came home as a Captain in 1974. ..likely dealing with PTSD in 1977 when he asked teens to date him. How often does that factoid get airtime?

Mike Sylwester said...

Andrew Sullivan obviously thinks that hoaxsters like Beverly Young Nelson are not "forces of evil".

However, hoaxster Nelson is defaming Roy Moore and is lying to prevent his election to the US Senate. She indeed is an evil force.

Fortunately, she also is rather stupid. She used a different-color ink to add words to Moore's yearbook inscription, and she added the letters "D.A." thinking mistakenly that they stood for the words "District Attorney". She added those letters because they were next to Judge Moore's signature on her divorce decree.

The fact that her stupidity discredits her lies does not mean that her lies are not evil.

The truthful girls at the mall were in their late teens, and they said that Moore acted rather politely with them.

The defamation of Roy Moore is essentially based only on that one evil force -- only on hoaxster Beverly Young Nelson.

Laslo Spatula said...

"Bill says nothing. Hillary ain’t running again. He’s got his money."

Perhaps.

But I think adulation means almost as much as money to him.

And he likes to have the last word.

I expect some trial balloons from people 'close to the ex-President' to soon be floated.

I am Laslo.

tim in vermont said...

"Blogger Jason said...

How nice of Sullivan to take some time off from obsessing over Trig Palin and over Sarah Palin's vagina that he can lecture the rest of us about the danger of one's heart being twisted by tribalism."

Maybe he learned something.

Birkel said...

It's as if Leftist Collectivists must start history anew each day. Last month "whataboutism" was a valid argument when non-Leftists demanded a single set of rules. But this morning we wake to find "whataboutism" is an internally conaistent argument.

Once again, we demand a single set of rules. And we know the failure to express such a set of rules is an expression of the Leftist Collectivists Will to Power. We reject your desire to have power over us. We choose freedom and liberty.

tim in vermont said...

Whataboutism means whatever liberals need it to mean on any given day, vis. Humty Dumpty .

iowan2 said...

I notice that somehow, Moore + Franken = Trump?! Moore has dropped off the radar,(as lies of the accusers unravel), Franken can't be held to the same standard that was in place Monday, and all we are left with is last years lies about President Trump doing something vague, to someone(s), 'in the past'... (Not a single accusation against President Trump has been supported by evidence)
To recap, Republicans bad, Democrats good.
I am shocked!

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

traditionalguy said...
..likely dealing with PTSD in 1977 when he asked teens to date him.


If this were true, his only reasonable course of action would be to acknowledge his actions and ask forgiveness.

Birkel said...

ARM thinks men should be kept out of girls' changing rooms.

The state of North Carolina thinks your anti-trans comments are deplorable.

One set of rules, or none.

tim in vermont said...

Yesterday's firmly held principles of Democrats are a distraction! But we still have the same press covering Uranium One, for example, today.

rhhardin said...

"Man and woman relations are interpersonal, not public, so there's no public issue."

This is nonsense, of course. If you are the parent of a daughter you do not want a public environment where perverts think they are entitled to burst into a changing room to perv at the bodies of teenage girls. Behavior like that would get a local school sports coach fired and the same standard should apply to the presidency.


You care about particular women, not all women. The guiding sentiment is that women are crazy. You care about some few. It's interpersonal.

You can't dogmatize it to a generality except as an undebated narrative. "The debate is already over." It never started.

Curious George said...

What we are seeing is the gradual capitulation of the left to their true nature. This brief owning up to past hypocrisy regarding the treatment of women couldn't last. It's not who they are. Women, like minorities, immigrants, and gays are just cannonfodder for their political ambitions. They are shameless.

tim in vermont said...

Remember when this was all about a Hillary and Obama mega donor, and ARM was all, "shut up about this issue"? Distraction!

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

Weinstein/Clinton/Menendez 2020 - the face of the corruptoctat party, y'all.

tcrosse said...

Did Trump do something naughty while in office ? Put up or shut up.

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

"Worst Trump credible accusation vs worst Clinton credible accusation, not even close. Trump apparently is some cross between Maurice Chevalier and Pepe LePew, Clinton used the power of his public trust to commit forcible rape." -Tim in Vermont



Exactly. Liberals now think 'Yucky!" and "you called me a name" are crimes.

iowan2 said...

"If this were true, his only reasonable course of action would be to acknowledge his actions and ask forgiveness."

Old left, Psycological problems suffered by people must be accepted, and society adjusts to them and their needs.
New left. Suck it up people, you're nuts, not disabled, do as you're told.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

rhhardin said...
The guiding sentiment is that women are crazy. You care about some few. It's interpersonal.


More nonsense. It is normal to generalize from the specific to the universal. I don't want a perv like Trump bursting into a locker room to harass my daughter, my daughter's friends or in fact any girls, in this nation or any other nation.

Birkel said...

DB@H,
You started a sentence with "liberals think" and I quit reading. A sentence that starts that way is wrong, by definition.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

tim in vermont said...
Remember when this was all about a Hillary and Obama mega donor, and ARM was all, "shut up about this issue"? Distraction!


Simply lying about another commenter is not good form Tim. Up your game.

tim in vermont said...

ARM and Unknown still won't accept that Clinton lured a constituent and supporter to a hotel room, violently raped her, and left her bleeding and crying with torn clothes where her friend has testified to Federal investigators that she found her. Somehow Trump is worse.

tim in vermont said...

LOL ARM. You complained a couple of times about Althouse's seeming obsession with this subject when it was hurting Democrats. Just a coincidence, I am sure.

Mike Sylwester said...

Soon after Bill Clinton became a state governor, he began using state troopers to help him enjoy sexual adventures with a large number and variety of women. The state troopers provided the following services:

* approached the women and invited them to meet the governor

* provided a perimeter defense during the subsequent meetings

* helped prevent the governor's wife from becoming informed.

Hillary did not know about about Bill's extra-marital sex in detail, but she must have known about it in general. After all, his adultery was extraordinarily prolific, and she was married to him since 1975.

I think that Hillary simply thought that all Bill's other women were sluts. Perhaps it did not occur to her that as a governor he was becoming more aggressive and abusive toward reluctant women who were being lured into his private presence by his state troopers acting as his wingmen.

tim in vermont said...

Situational ethics get into trouble when the situation changes too quickly, Democrats are discovering.

rhhardin said...

It is normal to generalize from the specific to the universal.

It's the democrat way.

Someday that it's a mistake will come up. Why not today.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

When I posted a list of Trump's sexual misconduct here it was deleted. I am not the one running away from reality. The Clinton's have faced consequences for their actions. Clinton losing the last election was a clear consequence. The lack of enthusiasm for Hillary was in large part due to reservations about Bill. If they have done something criminal then the criminal justice system should act. There is no shortage of conservative lawyers and judges. The same standard should apply to Trump. We shouldn't delude ourselves about what sort of man Trump really is.

FIDO said...

ARM said

And that a different misogynist and abuser of women is in power? This is your idea of progress?

Well, a) kowtowing to Feminists isn't a 'thing' for the Right that it is for the Left. We believe in civility instead of 'progress'.

Further, b) we don't believe in 'progress'. That Original Sin thing we have. So we have perverted scumbags yesterday. We have them today. We will have them tomorrow. Only your side is so incredibly arrogant that you think that mankind is perfectable. We believe it too, but believe it isn't happening on this Earth.

And c) we have a sense of proportion. A mall girl asked out by a wildly inappropriate man is not the damning unforgivable sin that you seem to think it is...except when it is one of YOUR tribe (Good Old Ted) who is suddenly on the chopping block. No...a Senator that you need can MURDER a woman and get away with it. Your side is very definitively uncaring about such circumstances.

Tell Mary Jo Kopechne's relatives about your intolerance of treating women badly. Tell it to Clinton's paramours.

Your side has lost any credibility to attack the Right on women's issues. Continuing to assert it is laughable and a desperate way to take away from your own sins.

Heal thyself.


Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

What is so distasteful of Andrew Sullivan is his assumption that HE is the center of the universe. That only he understands Christianity, and the notion that only people on the "right" side of politics are the wrong kind of Christians.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

I find Althouse's selective obsession with male sexual transgressions distinctly odd, when the elephant trophy head in the room is Trump.

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

Bill would have served time in prison if he faced the consequences of his actions.

Ross Douthat, after standard liberal apologist hedging, digs for some truth nuggets about The Clinton Crime Syndicate.

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

Worst Trump credible accusation vs worst Clinton credible accusation, not even close.

The elephant head is a donkey head, ARM.

Paco Wové said...

I assume the logical endpoint to the current crazy train of leftist thought is that men are simply too vile to be entrusted with political power, ipso facto only women should be granted such power. Preferably "diverse" women.

ga6 said...

Got to be rid of this meddlesome woman an get back to keeping and cutting up the money and power...

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

But Trump is icky and tried to kiss women and talked about grabbing them by the pussy. Much worse than actual rape.

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

The Clintons are two sickos. Corrupt sickos.
We deplorables can go to church today and thank God the two of them - along with their crew - are out of power.


-Dave B.

Amen and Hallelujah

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

Hillary was Bill's co-conspirator. she wanted his job and did everything she could to secure it. Blew up in her liar face.

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

You know that feeling you get when a terrorist accidental blows himself up.

Curious George said...

"AReasonableMan said...
When I posted a list of Trump's sexual misconduct here it was deleted."

It was deleted because it was off topic, not the first (nor likely the last) time you will come in and shit on a thread.

Qwinn said...

Yeah, Krauthammer tried the same line ARM is now: that we shouldn't investigate or indict Hillary because not becoming President was punishment enough.

There are no words for how stabby that lawless, insane, elitist, disgusting argument makes me.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Curious George said...
It was deleted because it was off topic


If an ex-president's semen stains were the topic, as they were, then Trump's sexual transgressions were definitely on-topic. Simply putting your hands over your ears and going nah-nah-nah is not the way for a grown person to go through life.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Qwinn said...
Yeah, Krauthammer tried the same line ARM is now


No. In fact I quite clearly stated that they should face legal consequences if there was a legitimate case. Lying about a fellow commenter is not good form.

tim in vermont said...

If you look at the accusation about Trump on that airplane in first class, you have to ask yourself how she didn't raise the tiniest ruckus that fellow passengers picked up on. It almost looks like she let him grab her by the pussy. Nobody remembers that time when future Hillary campaign worker slapped the famous billionaire who was flying in first class with them?

One has a contemporaneous witness that Trump grabbed her assumptions in the kitchen at Mar a Lago, and something happened between he and his wife inside their marriage. The rest seem pretty thin gruel to call someone a sexual predator.

May you can post a devastating one I missed. Just one, so we know we are dealing with the strongest case against Trump.

FIDO said...

ARM

So looking at teen models (what level of 'teen' are we talking about? Above or below the age of consent? Your wiggle room in using that term is vastly different if we are talking thirTEEN or eighteen, but you use the vague term to assert the worst.

If a woman is grabbed and she says no, how is that any worse than Slick Willie...whom you covered for. By condoning the sin, you have removed the sin. You still refuse to believe that you have the right (and the ability) to assert double standards.

You aren't and you can't. There are other news outlets out there. And we know too much about how the media covers for your perverts. Newsweek did not expose Clinton. The WaPo did not derail Edwards. Weinstein was exposed to the despite of NBC.

So we know the quality and fairness of your side quite well.

Curious George said...

"AReasonableMan said...
Curious George said...
It was deleted because it was off topic

If an ex-president's semen stains were the topic, as they were, then Trump's sexual transgressions were definitely on-topic. Simply putting your hands over your ears and going nah-nah-nah is not the way for a grown person to go through life."

Fuck you ARM. That wasn't the topic. The topic was the clothing decision of the new Vanity Fair editor. The blue dress was brought up because she wore a blue dress. You can disagree on Althouse's premise of the why's here. You are an dishonest person, or a moron, or perhaps both.

Joe Biden, America's Putin said...

ARM - you stated above that the Clintons already paid for their crimes.

tim in vermont said...

You should stop digging ARM. Let another, better troll take the shift. Problem is that you are one of the better trolls. Maybe it's the facts that are the problem?

Birkel said...

One standard or none. Make a choice.

Quaestor said...

ARM wrote: Whataboutism brings up the past to distract from the present.

Hardly. According to Wikipedia, Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument, which is particularly associated with Soviet and Russian propaganda.

Your pants are blazing.

tim in vermont said...

LOL Spellchecker thinks ass = assumptions.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Curious George said...
Fuck you


No. If it was OK to bring up an ex-presidents sexual transgressions then the sexual transgression of the current president are clearly on-topic. Does any one here know how to play this game?

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

FIDO said...
whom you covered for


When?

tim in vermont said...

Trump paid for these accusations by the closeness of the election! ARM say everybody move on! He is the decider about who has and hasn't served their comeuppance fully enough!

Curious George said...

"AReasonableMan said...No. If it was OK to bring up an ex-presidents sexual transgressions then the sexual transgression of the current president are clearly on-topic. Does any one here know how to play this game?"

So intellectually dishonest. Noted.

Meade said...

"No. If it was OK to bring up an ex-presidents sexual transgressions then the sexual transgression of the current president are clearly on-topic. Does any one here know how to play this game?"

The problem is, ARM, you alpha liberals refuse to play by your own rules.

tim in vermont said...

ARM is right about one thing, the Clintons are roadkill. The media machine that covered for them and Weinstein? Still pretending to give us all the news. Digging into the crimes that the loser committed in the past campaign is about cleaning up our partisan Democrat media.

Laslo Spatula said...

Bill Clinton, the Stand-Up Comedian...

Great night, people, great night, thank you for coming! A lot of news about me in the papers lately. See, right there: I'm from a different era, right? I remember when you read the news in papers, not on your phone. The world has changed from my day, I sure see it...

You know, I'm getting a rep as a kinda bad boy lately, am I right? Bad boy, bad boy. I can't help it, I'm from an earlier time, things were different between men and women.
Back then, when women said 'No', we actually thought they still kinda might mean 'yes', okay? I know, I know: times have changed. But in my defense, it WAS Arkansas, you know what I mean...?

I know better now, I know better. I'll tell you a little something. When I was young I idolized John Kennedy, idolized him, right? And JFK, he liked the ladies. And he liked cigars. So I liked the ladies and cigars, right? Except I kinda screwed that one up, didn't I? You keep the ladies and the cigars separate, I know that now. Again: I was from Arkansas -- sophistication there meant putting premium gas in your truck, okay..?

Now, of course, I've realized I caused a lot of pain, I feel it. I'm really sorry for what I've done. And I'm sorry for what I've done that hasn't come out yet, okay? Real sorry. From my heart. Growing up in Arkansas without a father figure, I didn't know the proper way to be with women. And I made mistakes: I know that. I understand now that we all can't live our lives like we're Teddy Kennedy, you know what I mean...?

And it might sound like I'm making fun of Arkansas tonight, but the truth is I love Arkansas. Deep down, I'm an Arkansas boy. Still am, still am. Back home, they say you can take the boy out of Arkansas, but you can't take Arkansas out of the boy. But it turns out you kinda can: it's called DNA testing...

You've been great, thank you, thank you from my heart...

I am Laslo.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Curious George said...
So intellectually dishonest.


Yes it is intellectually dishonest to treat the two presidents differently.

alan markus said...

Lighten up folks. This is how Democrats remain in the minority.”

From this guy; Ohio governor candidate apologizes for boasting of sexual history with ’50 very attractive females'

“In the last fifty years I was sexually intimate with approximately 50 very attractive females. It ranged from a gorgeous blonde who was my first true love and we made passionate love in the hayloft of her parents barn and ended with a drop dead gorgeous red head from Cleveland.

“Now can we get back to discussing legalizing marijuana and opening the state hospital network to combat the opioid crisis.”


In other words, just MoveOn

FullMoon said...

Behavior like that would get a local school sports coach fired and the same standard should apply to the presidency.
Be sure to let us know when the president does that, ok?

Misogyny is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls.

Only a fool or a liar would say Trump hates women. ARM a lying fool? JK.

Michael K said...

If you are the parent of a daughter you do not want a public environment where perverts think they are entitled to burst into a changing room to perv at the bodies of teenage girls.

Did ARM become a Republican when we weren't looking ? That is the Democrats' 2018 platform he is denigrating.

You will have to give back your transgender of the month award.

Michael K said...

"ARM is right about one thing, the Clintons are roadkill."

ARM is showing us the battle plan for next year.

Yes it is intellectually dishonest to treat the two presidents differently.

See, Clinton raped women and Trump joked about them letting you grab their pussy if you are a big enough celebrity.

See, those are exactly alike in ARM's opinion and in the campaign plans of Democrats for next year,

Mr. Majestyk said...

The allegations of misconduct came out against Trump before the general election (but, conveniently, after the primaries), and the voters chose Trump over Hillary anyway. Calls for him to resign over these allegations are simply an attempt to overturn the election. After the 1992 election, I don't recall anyone calling for Bill Clinton's resignation based on allegations of impropiety that were aired before the election. The calls for his impeachment arose based on revelations that occurred after Clinton was reelected in 1996.

Birkel said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gahrie said...

And that a different misogynist and abuser of women is in power?

Trump has a verifiable history of promoting and supporting women in business.

Birkel said...

Mr. Majestyk said... "...impropriety..."

Not to be a nudge but you misspelled rape.

Mike Sylwester said...

When evil hoaxster Beverley Young Nelson added words -- using different-color ink -- to Roy Moore's inscription in her yearbook, she was very careful in a couple elements:

* She carefully copied Moore's last name from her divorce decree.

* She carefully copied the letters "D.A." from her divorce decree.

However, evil hoaxster Nelson was NOT careful in a couple of other elements:

* She did not notice that Moore wrote the numerals 77 differently than she does.

* She remembered incorrectly that the restaurant's name included the archaic spelling "Olde".

Another mistake was her assumption that the letters "D.A." stood for the words "District Attorney". Based on that mistake, she included the words "District Attorney" in her melodramatic wording of Moore's imaginary threat -- that he would be believed because he was a district attorney whereas she was only a child.

Did hoaxster Nelson make all these self-discrediting mistakes because of God or because of Satan? Good arguments can be made for either answer.

I myself believe that hoaxster Nelson made her self-discrediting mistakes because of Satan. Hoaster Nelson is a force of evil -- in other words a force of Satan. Hoaxter Nelson has sinned and is continuing to sin because of Satan.

Gahrie said...

Trump is president today. Whataboutism brings up the past to distract from the present.

IOW: It's Ok when I do it.

Quaestor said...

I think that Hillary simply thought that all Bill's other women were sluts.

Perhaps. It's more likely her tolerance of his appetites was a political calculation based on his evident charisma and the opportunities that were bound to come his way. The Democrats have been in search of a Kennedy figure since that horrible day in Dallas. (They're still looking, btw.) In the 1980's Bill Clinton had but one rival for the crown of Camelot — Gary Hartpence — and when that feckless cretin went down with the Monkey Business, there was nothing to bar his way except a "bimbo" with the temerity to talk. Thus the vigorous defense of her husband and the coordinated intimidation and humiliation of WJC's myriad victims. The Bill and Hillary Show is nothing but an alliance of sociopaths.

Birkel said...

Did I miss an allegation against Roy Moore?

Or is this a scandal without sex?

I know there is odd or weird or off putting behavior toward girls who are young. And I know the allegations are rolled off the assembly line one at a time, so they cannot be refuted in the press.

But did Roy Moore fly on the Lolita Express to Epstein's island?

FullMoon said...

No. If it was OK to bring up an ex-presidents sexual transgressions then the sexual transgression of the current president are clearly on-topic. Does any one here know how to play this game?

11/19/17, 8:12 AM


The current president has been tried in the court of public opinion. Verdict: elected.
Keep crying..

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Your argument is that if female students at the local school alleged that a male coach walked in on them while changing he would not be fired? Your school district must have very different standards than mine. There is zero tolerance for this crap where I live.

These are Trump's own words regarding the adult competitions:

"Well, I'll tell you the funniest is that I’ll go backstage before a show, and everyone's getting dressed and ready and everything else, and you know, no men are anywhere. And I'm allowed to go in because I'm the owner of the pageant and therefore I'm inspecting it. You know, I'm inspecting, I want to make sure that everything is good.

You know, the dresses. ‘Is everyone okay?’ You know, they're standing there with no clothes. ‘Is everybody okay?’ And you see these incredible looking women, and so, I sort of get away with things like that. But no, I've been very good.


Maybe he had a different standard of behavior regarding the teen competitions but this is not a strong argument, given Trump's general lack of discipline.

FullMoon said...

Darn auto correct. Crying/trying.

Comanche Voter said...

Somewhere out there a Democrat woman is planning to "take one for the team", and will venture forth with a detailed (and fictiional) allegation that Trump came on to her and sexually harassed her. Right now the volunteer has not self identified. But trust me, she will.

And it is possible that a woman or former young girl may exist who actually was assaulted or harassed (those terms are flexible these days) by Trump at some point in the past. So far one hasn't come forward.

But that doesn't stop the lefty bozos who say that Franken + Moore = Trump.

Still and all getting back to the snippet of Andrew Sullivan our host posted, it's nice to see that sometimes Andrew's BS detector still works. He's spread so much of it over the years that I thought his sensors would be blown out by now.

Gahrie said...

I don't want a perv like Trump bursting into a locker room to harass my daughter, my daughter's friends or in fact any girls, in this nation or any other nation.

Unless he claims he's woman...right?

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

Gahrie said...
Trump has a verifiable history of promoting and supporting women in business.


Bill Clinton had a verifiable history of promoting and supporting women in government and promoting and supporting women's causes through legislation.

FullMoon said...

These are Trump's own words regarding the adult competitions:

"Well, I'll tell you the funniest is that I’ll go backstage before a show, and everyone's getting dressed and ready and everything else, and you know, no men are anywhere. And I'm allowed to go in because I'm the owner of the pageant and therefore I'm inspecting it. You know, I'm inspecting, I want to make sure that everything is good.

You know, the dresses. ‘Is everyone okay?’ You know, they're standing there with no clothes. ‘Is everybody okay?’ And you see these incredible looking women, and so, I sort of get away with things like that. But no, I've been very good.


Everybody knows Trump lies, right? Or have you changed your mind?

Mr. Majestyk said...

The voters had a choice between Trump and Hillary. They chose Trump fully aware of the allegations against him. That's the difference with the male-coach-walking-in-on-female-athletes scenario.

Mike Sylwester said...

The words that Roy Moore actually did write -- in black ink -- in the yearbook of 14-year-old Beverly were:

-----
To a sweeter, more beautiful girl I could not say "Merry Christmas"

Christmas 1977

Love, Roy
-----

He was admonishing 14-year-old Beverly to remain sweet and to live her entire life in the spirit of the religious holiday Christmas.

Instead, however, Beverly grew up to become a force of evil -- to become a tool of Satan -- to become a hoaxster who lies in order to defame a man and to prevent his election.

Andrew Sullivan should recognize that this has happened to once-sweet Beverly and should join those who are denouncing the forces of evil in this situation.

Birkel said...

Bill Clinton has a history of using other people's money to pretend to help women.

Donald Trump has a history of using his own money to support women.

ARM sees an equivalence.

Gahrie said...

Bill Clinton had a verifiable history of promoting and supporting women in government and promoting and supporting women's causes through legislation.

1) Isn't this whataboutism again?

2) I never called Bill Clinton a misogynist...he's simply a rapist and a harasser.

Quaestor said...

Speaking of dead meat, will someone please bury the rotting corpse of James Carville?

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

That a minority of voters voted for Trump does not absolve him from all sin. If this were true Bill Clinton would also be absolved of all sin. A minority of voters may have decided that Trump was the better than the alternative, and there may well be good reasons to believe this, but that doesn't mean that there isn't something very off about Trump.

Gahrie said...

but that doesn't mean that there isn't something very off about Trump.

It's the "R" after his name.

FullMoon said...

....voters may have decided that Trump was the better than the alternative, and there may well be good reasons to believe this, but that doesn't mean that there isn't something very off about Trump.

Vast majority of counties voted for Trump

Now Trump needs to go because he is off? Of course he is off, he lies all the time. You guys have stressed it over and over and over. He is lying about seeing teens naked.

Phil 314 said...

After all the noise above this is where the Obama quote is most appropriate

"Why can't I just eat my waffle?"

FullMoon said...

Remove illegal votes, Trump has majority.

FullMoon said...

ISIS on the run
401k's up.
Optimism abounds

Mike Sylwester said...

The US Senate does not have any legitimate business investigating Roy Moore's sexual antics that took place 40 years ago.

On the other hand, the US Senate does have LEGITIMATE business investigating people who currently are perpetrating a hoax in order to meddle in an upcoming election for a federal offices.

Investigating such a hoax that intends to affect an election for a seat in the US Senate IS the US Senate's business.

The US Senate should investigate the following two people ...

1) Evil hoaxster Beverly Young Nelson

2) Nelson's enabler Gloria Allred

... about the hoax they are perpetrating to affect the election to fill a seat in the US Senate.

The US Senate should use all its investigative resources, including its ability to investigate evil hoaxster Nelson's bank accounts, telephone records and e-mail. The FBI should be come to her home at an early-morning time and search it thoroughly.

Also, the Senate chaplain should pray daily -- and on the record -- that God prevent elections to fill Senate seats from being affected by the Forces of Evil.

cronus titan said...

Revisiting Bill Clinton's sexual assault history is relevant because it is Democrats who want to take Hillary out of running in 2020. Hillary is giving every indication she plans to run again, including the blame everyone but me tour, promoting PACs and so on. THere is no reason to think she would be any better in 2020. The result would be the same, or worse. Like Bourbons, she learns nothing and forgets nothing. Democrats want to beat Trump up on women, which is impossible for Hillary.

Hillary will never, ever gracefully bow. Like Gollum with the Ring, Hillary sees the Oval Office as the Precious.

Seeing Red said...

I thought all this Clinton stuff was settled with the 1990 interview 60 Minutes interview?



To add to all this winning a possible Mideast Peace Settlement.

And it seems an 80 billion dollar petro chemical agreement for West Virginia.

Quaestor said...

I never called Bill Clinton a misogynist...he's simply a rapist and a harasser.

The fact that someone Bill Clinton can be a self-professed feminist, push the appropriate political buttons, and garner the support of the leaders of the feminist movement is not the Clintons' fault. As garden variety sociopaths Bill and Hillary have done whatever was necessary to further their aims. They've worn the costume, as it were. That it has taken more than nearly three decades for even the fringe elements to acknowledge the truth we conservatives could plainly see in 1992 is a gargantuan problem for feminism as an ideology. (I use the term loosely. Characterizing an amorphous heap of "feelz" as an ideology is a bit of a stretch.)

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

FullMoon said...
Everybody knows Trump lies, right?


So all his denials of misconduct are lies, right?

FullMoon said...

AReasonableMan said...

FullMoon said...
Everybody knows Trump lies, right?

So all his denials of misconduct are lies, right?
11/19/17, 9:21 AM


Of course, in your mind. According to you guys, anything he says that makes him look bad is the truth, anything that is true that makes him look good is bad. Difference is, he has mended his evil ways, while you continue to lie.

Michael K said...

"That a minority of voters voted for Trump does not absolve him from all sin."

No, it makes Hillary president of California, the only place she had a majority.

She is welcome to it now that I have escaped.

Bill Clinton never got a majority but I notice you lefties were fine with that.

FullMoon said...

ARM would rather America fail than Trump succeed.

Sebastian said...

Sullivan v. Goldberg illustrates current prog discombobulation. Dissing Palin? Everyone's on board, and Andy is a happy vilifier. Dissing Trump? Of course. Dissing Bill? Wait. What's a good prog to do now? Dismiss the old prog defense, admit error and come clean, at long last--like, believe the women? Or stick to the old bromides, that it was all a vast right-wing conspiracy and that Monica consented and that Hill was a strong woman but didn't know a thing and that Bill deserved a pass because women's rights?

In setting off the sexual harassment witch hunt, progs miscalculated. Not only do they risk destroying many of their own, they also have to confront the meta-issue implicit in Sullivan v. Goldberg: is it still viable to have one set of standards for progs, another for non-progs?

The double standard was their only standard. What now?

Bad Lieutenant said...


Blogger AReasonableMan said...
Curious George said...
It was deleted because it was off topic

If an ex-president's semen stains were the topic, as they were, then Trump's sexual transgressions were definitely on-topic. Simply putting your hands over your ears and going nah-nah-nah is not the way for a grown person to go through life.
11/19/17, 8:00 AM



Take your own advice. You have been corrected by none other than our gracious hostess, but refuse to accept that you were wrong. You're way out of line. Which is par for the course with you, naturally. But you don't ever seem to get the message.

buwaya said...

These are what the Greeks and Romans would have called a crime of sacrilege. That is, the physical or personal offense is not as important in itself, as a public matter, than the perceived offense against the civic religion. A similar crime, of similar absolute consequence, in the personal sphere, would not matter if it werent for the sacred nature of that which is violated.

Then and now sacrilege was a political crime. Typically it was brought up as a political attack, or a pretext for such, as in the several cases against Alcibiades.

Sam L. said...

So Andy's back deep inside the reservation, eh? I recall reading something he wrote recently that seemed quite rational.

Michelle Dulak Thomson said...

"A woman who pioneered the notion of a First Lady as co-President"? No, Andrew, it was Bill who said "Two for the price of one!" And in any case, the first female co-President was obviously Edith Bolling Galt Wilson, a century ago. And she did it at a time when women (outside Nebraska, anyway) couldn't even vote.

buwaya said...

But as a political crime, sacrilege could only be made to stick if the politician in question lacked the public support to protect himself. Typically these things would come up to a vote (with the ostraka, the potsherds). Losers got exiled, and sometimes executed. Athenian politics wasnt beanbag.

Jupiter said...

Wait, Michelle Goldberg wants to have it both ways? Is she by any chance female?

FIDO said...

There is a vast difference of privacy between high school students and a male coach, where in loco parentis stands as a doctrine as well as being on public GOVERNMENTAL property with school regulations and codes of conduct

AND a dressing room full of EMPLOYEES, which is filled with male hair dressers and wardrobe people, which is private property and has none of the codes of conduct except those of civility and taste and where a state of dishabille is considered a work norm.

But nice trying to make highly distortive, inaccurate and misleading comparisons.

FIDO said...

buwaya,

The problem is that Democrat and Republicans have different civil religions.

tim in vermont said...

Bill Clinton had a verifiable history of promoting and supporting women in government and promoting and supporting women's causes through legislation.

Yes, and when a supporter wanted to meet him in the lobby of a hotel to discuss policy, since, the had a business running a nursing home, and it was part of her professional focus, Bill Clinton decides that she is nothing more than a walking pussy, changes the venue for the meeting to a private hotel room, and forcibly rapes her, leaving her bleeding, with torn clothes, and crying, for her friend to discover her (That's the testimony of the witness, that the media protects the delicate ears of liberals from).

If that is not misogyny, I don't know what the word could possibly mean.

tim in vermont said...

hat a minority of voters voted for Trump does not absolve him from all sin

When I said that you were the "decider" of who had paid enough for their sins, I was mocking you ARM.

glenn said...

I think Michelle meets the Michael Moore definition of a liar. Therefore anything she writes from now on is suspect. As is anything else in the NYT. ‘K.

buwaya said...

Political crimes like these haven't a lot to do with public policy or the welfare of the state. They are purely symbolic. The most potent ancient criticism of democracy cited the failure of perspective generated by such issues, leading to grave errors on substantial questions.

The classic case of democratic failure due to a whipped-up issue of this sort is the fate of the Athenian admirals of Arginusae. They had won a brilliant victory against heavy odds, saving an Athenian garrison and turning the tide of the Pelopponesian war. But the fleet had suffered heavy casualties, and the initial public grief led the politicians to put the admirals on trial, and the public condemned them to death in its hysteria.

Which, of course, led to a string of Athenian defeats, the permanent loss of naval supremacy, and ultimate defeat in the Pelopponesian war.

A modern example would be the Watergate scandal, in which otherwise trivial matters paralyzed US foreign policy and led to a decade of defeats in the Cold War, some of tje consequences of which still afflict US foreign policy today.

Beloved Commenter AReasonableMan said...

FIDO said...
There is a vast difference


So your argument is that Trump's behavior may not meet the standards of a government employee but he could still get a job in the private sector. Remind me again, who is his current employer?

tim in vermont said...

So your argument is that Trump's behavior may not meet the standards of a government employee but he could still get a job in the private sector. Remind me again, who is his current employer?

So ARM wants Franken gone? That's how I would interpret it. But back to planet earth. There is a different standard for Democrats, just ask Ted Kennedy. It's only reasonable, because there would be nobody besides these specific men, Al Franken, Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, would could have stood up so strongly for women's rights! Oh yeah, and Al Gore, Mr Chakra, whose accuser tells of being harassed by her liberal friends to "shut up and take one for the team! The planet could melt!"

Just like Harvey Weinstein was going to destroy the NRA! Even though nobody glamorizes guns like Hollywood!

tim in vermont said...

Franken and Trump seem reasonably equivalent. Both in show business. Bill Clinton is headed for a much deeper circle of Hell.

Hyphenated American said...

By liberal standards, mueller is wrong prosecuting manafort and general Flynn. Both of them are not presidents.
Agreed?

bgates said...

Maybe he had a different standard of behavior regarding the teen competitions but this is not a strong argument

By this...set of words which appears to aspire to be called "logic", we could accuse Bill Clinton of having an affair with Yassir Arafat.

Maybe he had a different standard of behavior regarding foreign political figures in the Oval Office, "but this is not a strong argument".

MacMacConnell said...

It's amazing that Andrew Sullivan can take the time away from his Manhattan OB-GYN practice to write an article.

Darrell said...

To a sweeter, more beautiful girl I could not say

Christmas 1977

Love, Ray

Ray rhymes with "say."
Later changed to Roy Moore's signature as a judge from the stamp on the divorce papers, twenty years later.

Mike Sylwester said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mike Sylwester said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
MacMacConnell said...

Less we forget Bill Clinton was accused of Woopie's ""RAPE RAPE" twice. Once in Oxford as a student and once in Little Rock as AK Attorney General. Of course he also was a rounder, knocking the shit out of the bottoms of scores of women, that was legal.

Hillary knew, but didn't care. While he was out tappin it, she was shacked up with Vince Foster for long work weekends at the Ozark cabin. It's amazing what you could learn back when Clinton was governor sitting at the Excelsior Hotel bar. Not only did Hillary know, everyone involved in AK government knew.

Mike Sylwester said...

Of course, Gloria Allred should be investigated by the US Senate for her aiding and abetting a hoax that has the intention of affecting an election to fill a seat in the US Senate.

Allred should be called to testify to a Senate committee, and her testimony should be televised.

Allred should be asked about payment she is receiving or has been promised for her involvement in this hoax to affect an election to fill a seat in the US Senate.

Beyond that investigation, however, Allred should be investigated by her state bar. Allred is using her lawyer status to perpetrate a hoax against the public.

Beyond those two investigations, Allred should be investigated by the National Council of Churches. Allred is colluding with the Forces of Evil and is misguiding Beverly Young Nelson, who used to be a sweet 14-year-old girl.

FIDO said...

ARM

So your argument is that Trump's behavior may not meet the standards of a government employee but he could still get a job in the private sector. Remind me again, who is his current employer?

No. This is you spinning like a Dervish.

Context matters. "Trump saw a naked teen" you assert. Well...was she the age of consent? Were other adults in the room with the 'naked' teens? What was the age of the teens?

You eschew details and go vague for self serving purposes and it is noted.

It used to be an old joke that Liberals didn't care if a 18 year old girl was selling sex as long as she was getting a minimum wage.

I am happy to hear that you also care if and ONLY if a teenaged girl is SEEN if it can be used to attack a Republican...but certainly the murder of a girl should never be used against a Democrat.

You guys are on record for that stance.

Lyle Smith said...

Michelle Goldberg is a nasty person.

FIDO said...

Who was Teddy Kennedy working for again? Bill Clinton?

FIDO said...

Michelle Goldberg is a nasty person.

And not in a good way either.

That being said, everyone has some redeeming qualities. Let's see...she has a nice rack. And she seems clean and articulate as well. Can't think of much else.

The Cracker Emcee Refulgent said...

"The Clinton's have faced consequences for their actions."

Not from the Democrats. So it's perfectly fair to infer that all Democrats are cool with forcible rape.

FIDO said...

Blogger Unknown said...
"The Clinton's have faced consequences for their actions."

Not from the Democrats. So it's perfectly fair to infer that all Democrats are cool with forcible rape.


He was perfectly accurate. Bill Clinton and Wife DID face consequences.

He just failed to add the complete sentence: ...despite our best efforts for him to avoid ANY consequences

But then again, that isn't exactly flattering for them to violate the principles to act like human shields for a rapist.

Achilles said...

Unknown said...
"The Clinton's have faced consequences for their actions."

Not from the Democrats. So it's perfectly fair to infer that all Democrats are cool with forcible rape.

Don't forget the bribery, corruption, and using the federal civil service to spy on and attack political opponents. Democrat voters are fine with persecuting political opponents as their constant violence demonstrates.

tim in vermont said...

Here the screen [SNL] showed a picture of Mr. Franken, Bill Cosby, Mr. Moore, Louis C.K., President Trump and Mr. Weinstein.

Not Bill Clinton of course. It's almost like they are covering for the guy or something, want to "coddle" their audience and protect them from uncomfortable truths.

Naah!

tim in vermont said...

Even Slate came out with the obvious about Bill Clinton being a rapist, you should see the comments! "OMG, how can you believe a lying slut like Juanita! Don't even get me started on Paula Jones and Kathleen Willey!"

That would be the gist of them.

Howard said...

Blogger traditionalguy said....... No one hears he was a West Point graduate who served in Vietnam Nam and came home as a Captain in 1974. ..likely dealing with PTSD in 1977 when he asked teens to date him. How often does that factoid get airtime?
Vis Wikipedia and Moore's own autobiography:

With the Vietnam War underway, Moore served in several posts as a military police officer, including Fort Benning, Georgia, and Illesheim, Germany before being deployed to the Republic of Vietnam. Serving as the commander of 188th Military Police Company of the 504th Military Police Battalion,[21] .... Some of his soldiers gave him the derogatory nickname "Captain America", due to his attitude toward discipline. This role earned him enemies, and in his autobiography he recalls sleeping on sandbags to avoid a grenade or bomb being tossed under his cot, as many of his men had threatened him with fragging.[20]
I agree Traditional Guy, Moore's record as a military cop should be highlighted. I mean, it's not like he had a cushy duty like serving on a Swiftboat.

tim in vermont said...

Yes, swift boat captain in Cambodia, Christmas Day!

tim in vermont said...

Institutional feminism died when Gloria Steinem, Madeleine Albright and other top feminists vouched for President Clinton as he brazenly lied about never having had a sexual relationship with “that woman” — Monica Lewinsky. The Clintons and feminists were outraged when Thomas’s supporters painted Anita Hill as “a little bit nutty and a little bit slutty.” Yet that was precisely the Clintonian tack when women spoke up about Bill’s misbehaving.

Time and again, Hillary was a party to demonizing women as liars, bimbos, trailer trash or troubled souls when it seemed clear they were truthful about her philandering husband. She often justified this by thinking of the women as instruments of the right-wing conspiracy
- Maureen Dowd in the New York Times today.

Maureen has always been a little bit too much of a true believer in this feminism nonsense Democrats have been using to scare women into voting for them.

tim in vermont said...

The feminist icon in the White House doesn't flinch at smearing these women, even when she suspects they're telling the truth, because she feels they're instruments of a conspiracy. It may turn out that there are right-wing troublemakers involved here, but when Mrs. Clinton uses apocalyptic language she's just changing the subject.

Ms. Lewinsky must die so that the women of America can have better child care, longer maternity stays, toll-free domestic violence hot lines and bustling mutual funds.

Mrs. Clinton knows she can count on the complicity of feminists and Democratic women in Congress. They accept the trade-off in letting a few women be debased so that they can get more day-care centers.

The danger here is, spare the rod, spoil the President. If he escapes again, he will grope again.

Also, once you decide it's O.K. to sacrifice individual women for the greater good, you set a dangerous precedent. Mrs. Clinton's head might also wind up on the block.
. - Maureen Dowd, New York Times, 1998

It seems like history is kinder to those who despise the Clintons. We don't have to change our rationalizations all the time, we have our opinions, and they are borne out time after time.

tim in vermont said...

Of course the press isn't covering anything else up about the Clintons in particular, or the Democrats in general. You can count on that! No need for the likes of Althouse to parse their half-truths, or the Drudge Report to report their spiked stories, because they are always being square with us!

Night Owl said...

The left suffers from "the boy who cried wolf" problem. They have been accusing Trump and Republicans of so many crimes for so long that no one else believes them anymore. Every Republican is Hitler; every Republican is a monster. They peaked for me at the Romney and his dog story. After that I just started discounting EVERYTHING the leftist media said about Republicans. They have proven that they will distort facts and outright lie about Republicans. They also have a hypocrisy problem, because they will shamelessy make excuses for all sorts of evil Democrat behavior-- the worst we know of being the "Lion of the Senate" leaving a woman to drown.

Gloria Allred and that apparently phony yearbook signature is just the lastest example of leftists using a lie to try and take down a Republican. And the "Al Franken excuse", that we need to keep gropey Dems in Congress in order to protect women from gropey Republicans, sounds logical only to Dems. Everyone else thinks it sounds like hypocrisy.

The left trotted out the "pussy-grabbing" story already and it went no where fast, because of the left's credibility problem. They need to give us some proof of Trump's misdeeds or this story goes in the same folder as the Russian collusion story-- the one labelled "bullshit".

Night Owl said...

(For the record, I don't care whether Franken or Moore resign, since I don't know what the truth is about either. And since I'll never have to vote for either one of them, I won't go out of my way to try and find out the truth.)

MacMacConnell said...

" I mean, it's not like he had a cushy duty like serving on a Swiftboat."

There is a lot of truth in that, especially if one knows what MPs in Vietnam actually did.

tim in vermont said...

Look at the contrast between Al Franken, accepting responsibility, apologizing, and Roy Moore and Donald Trump who have done neither,” Clinton said.

“[That] is the kind of accountability I’m talking about. I don’t hear that from Roy Moore or Donald Trump.”
- Hillary Clinton

LOL, the gift that keeps on giving! Did we hear that from Bill, Hillary?

tim in vermont said...

I have a feeling that if Hillary doesn't take a hint soon and go away, she is going to be the one to end up in Ft Marcey Park.

How many editorials does it take from the New York Times to constitute a hint, Hillary?

tcrosse said...

Hillary committed the unforgivable sin of losing the election. Had she not done that, all else that she and Bill got up to would have been forgiven. Not a word of it would have reached us in the reeducation camps.

Jose_K said...

a woman who pioneered the notion of a First Lady as co-president.. Abigail Adams? Eleanor Roosevelt? Edith Wilson?

FIDO said...


With the Vietnam War underway, Moore served in several posts as a military police officer, including Fort Benning, Georgia, and Illesheim, Germany before being deployed to the Republic of Vietnam. Serving as the commander of 188th Military Police Company of the 504th Military Police Battalion,[21]

I don't know anything about Moore. I don't CARE anything about Moore. None of the Lefty media services are going to give anything like the truth. You have logbook pages of Clinton flying the Lolita Express but the number of reporters actually investigating WHAT he was doing in Asia is exactly zero. My disbelief and cynicism in the media is MASSIVE.

That being said, I recall what a good old boy in my Guard unit (ex Army) said a long time back: "If you want to fuck a 14 year old girl, just find yourself a 25 year old Vietnamese woman."

So war time, military police, refugees, Vietnamese girls, asshole with power...

Soldiers are not exactly known for their easily offended nature. They tend to know assholes. Granted, the draftees of Vietnam were not exactly raising military flags in photo ops either.

So if the timber of Moore's soul got bent askew...the force which created the pathologies are rather easy to see.

The question is: are actions which are even older than Bill (Hide the Cigar) Clinton going to be repeated?